VMP 268: Navigating Paid Media For Your Veterinary Practice: Insights from Vayner Media’s Jon Morgenstern

Brandon (00:00:00) - Welcome to the Veterinary Marketing Podcast, where it's all about how to attract, engage and retain clients to your veterinary practice using digital marketing. My name is Brandon Breashears and I am super excited about today's episode. It was one of my favorite conversations so far and I always say that a lot. But today I really got into the weeds with this guest. And today's guest is Jon Morgenstern. And chances are you probably have not heard of Jon just because he is the head of paid advertising for VaynerMedia. What is VaynerMedia? It's the company that Gary Vaynerchuk started and Jon is in charge of that, which is amazing. Uh, so he is the head of Paid media. His official title at Vayner media is Head of Investment, and he manages and helps with not only the clients there, but also Gary's personal brands like the Wine Club. Um Vee friends and other things like that. So, uh, I was really, really excited to talk to Jon because he is not just a conceptual like viewer of these types of media concepts, but he's actually a practitioner and he's actually doing it.

Brandon (00:01:17) - And, um, we'll get into that in just a little bit. So this episode is obviously packed full of incredible content, so many good pieces of insight and value, and it's really cool to get this massive perspective. But also he's got the very unique in the kind of thick of it insights of here's how we do things. He's out there doing things, and he's involved in the ad networks and in the ad interfaces, and he's actually doing it. So that's what I absolutely love about talking to Jon. So this episode is incredible. Probably one of my favorite. Uh, it just is fantastic. So before we begin, a few things. First, if you haven't subscribed to be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play wherever you get your podcasts from next. Uh, we have a couple messages from sponsors today. Are you looking to get better SEO ranking for your practice? Probably everyone I know that runs a veterinary hospital would be benefited from having better local SEO, and that's why I want to give you some free tools from one of today's sponsor.

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Brandon (00:03:38) - Fantastic tool that allows you to measure and see where your conversions are coming from and which of the calls and call sources are driving clients into your practice. CallRail makes it really simple to not only see where your calls are coming from, but the AI tools that they have that track and record the conversation so that you can assign outcomes to the calls is amazing. I highly suggest all of the clients that I have used CallRail, and if you've ever wondered where my clients coming from, you can try call out for two weeks for free. If you go to veterinarymarketingpodcast.com/callrail, you'll be able to try CallRail for yourself and finally know where your clients are coming from. So today we have Jon Morgenstern or as he calls himself, Jaimoe most of the time in his social media handles. And I actually found Jon in TikTok. Um, and I'm so thankful that that came across my TikTok algorithm because his content is fantastic. If you search at Johnny Mo, but the O's are zeros. That's his TikTok account.

Brandon (00:04:45) - I'm going to link it in the show notes. If you go to veterinarymarketingpodcast.com, you can check that out. But the thing that I love about Jon and I referenced this when we started is that when he's talking about things, he's got this massive like. Global view of advertising and organic marketing and all of these things, because he's managing campaigns for massive companies that VaynerMedia has as clients. But at the same time, he's in these ad platforms doing the work, seeing new things that come out. And so I was just thinking, this would be amazing to get his insights onto what local businesses should be doing and veterinary practices, because he's got just the scale that's unseen, right? I didn't ask him how much he specifically managed an ad spend, but I would just guess it is astronomical. Uh, you know, for for me, with veterinary practices and things, um. I get to teach you some some really cool things and scale up some clients. But for the most part, it's all pretty tactical and small in terms of budgets and things like that on the grand scale of things.

Brandon (00:05:50) - And so it's really cool to get some insight from somebody like Jon who is, you know, so connected to all of these massive brands, these big strategies and kind of takes a look not just at the individual tactics, but like the ecosystem as a whole. So this conversation is packed full of incredible, um. Content. Really? Really good. Um. Insights, and it's very actionable. And hopefully it'll help you to think about marketing in a way that will improve your practice. So be sure to give Jon a follow on TikTok. Be sure to comment on one of his videos and tell him, hey, I heard you on the Veterinary Marketing Podcast. That'd be cool and thank him for coming on if you find value from this podcast episode. So without further ado, here is my interview with Jon. Well, thank you so much, Jon. And do you like to be called JMO better or just Jon, by the way?

Jon (00:06:50) - Um, I'm good with either. Everyone at work calls me JMO that I don't need.

Jon (00:06:54) - It goes back to, uh, my last job at Social Code, my first company, because so many of us came to Vayner over the years, and I was JMO there. Uh, and I just became JMO again. Um, but whatever you want, Brandon.

Brandon (00:07:06) - All right. Cool. Well, so one of the things that I love about your content is it is both very high level and also granular, like so it's clouds and dirt, right? Which is like Gary's thing. Yeah. And so I think you have tremendous takes on just general strategy and where things are going. I don't know how you keep up with everything. Like it's amazing. And then like two days ago you're making a TikTok about like here, let's go to Shopify and create AI backgrounds. And so like you're actually doing it and I love that. So I think I'd like to start off by asking you from a very high level. And then I have some like more detailed questions based on where you think things are going, but kind of like a state of digital marketing for specifically local service based businesses, because veterinaries are local service based.

Brandon (00:07:54) - Right. Um, what do you think some of the biggest trends and opportunities are right now from both an ad buying perspective and then also maybe a social perspective, because I think you have such great insight on on all of those things. So, yeah.

Jon (00:08:09) - Um, thank you so much for the, for the kind words and on the, uh, on the doing, like the practitioner ship and and clouds and dirt and weeds. I mean, that's where Gary is. He people know he's in it and like see him talk about it a lot. But I think they'd be surprised at like just how in it like he leads by example. Um, and you know. That I moonlight as is paid media person like individually, even though my day job, his day job is really VaynerMedia the agency and our clients. Um. I am like motivated to do it myself. Because when he or even worse, his dad who's Sasha, who's terrifying because he, you know, Eastern European immigrant when you spend a dollar because I'll do the wine library stuff for Gary.

Jon (00:08:59) - And I'm like, I'm like, oh, I should literally do this myself because I want to be that careful. But I've, I fell in love with the ad interfaces, like first day at Social Code, just like. Refreshing and seeing how much of a thing you did and wait. This creative got a better response rate from this. Why? And like also, way back in the day, people really didn't know as much as now is how tracking worked and what was targetable or like how ads found them. And I felt like so powerful. So I've always just loved being in these interfaces, and I've gotten good counsel over the years of like. I tried of like, oh, I should be a manager and I should be selling and and I should be a client relationships person. I was like, I really I mean, I dread going out to dinner and schmoozing like, I, I'm better at being in these interfaces than I am at, like, other things. So why not just.

Jon (00:09:53) - And Gary talks about this a lot. Just triple down on that. So I just want to touch on that first since you brought it up about.

Brandon (00:09:58) - I think that's I think that's a great point. And I'm the same way too. So I run a paid agency. Right. And I will never step away from like I'm out launching campaigns, like I launched campaigns I still go through. I'm constantly looking at affinity audiences and segments and seeing what's new like, especially the obscure affinity audiences I love finding like they have affinity audience of people interested in veterinary jobs on like YouTube placements. And I think like, oh my goodness, that's amazing. We could target, you know, these things. So I'm totally take that. That's one of the things I love about your content.

Jon (00:10:31) - Oh yeah. Underpriced hunting for underpriced attention. You know, either because no one has gone as far into the weeds known as Lewis and Clark did, as crazy as you have or, um, just tinkering. Yeah, I love that.

Jon (00:10:42) - But to the to the, um, first question about state of of digital, it's crazy. Every year that goes by, I'm like, oh wow, this is the most. There's more stuff going on this year than than ever. Like, wow. Like, I mean, whatever it is I or creators or organic social or privacy. And every year just gets more. Maybe that's just the nature of, uh, entropy and and the rate of change with, with tech and everything going on. But this year is off to a blistering start between obviously year two of the AI stuff. And you touched on it to start this. There was the OpenAI Gen AI, Midjourney like, here's what's possible. And then like this will work in marketing. This will be very important in marketing. But it was very it was not like. That tangible or that useful. Unless, folks, you really kind of pioneered did your own thing. Now we're seeing in Google ads, in Shopify in meta more of that coming.

Jon (00:11:43) - Yeah. And meta especially, I'm sure you know this. They're just all about creative as the variable and like creative effectiveness maybe because they probably expect that they won't have inventory growth forever. Like at some point they, you know, you can't keep stuffing more impressions, but you can grow endlessly on on your conversion rate higher and higher. Google search CPMs can touch $300. No problem. No one cares if the conversion rate you back into a cost per return ad spend you like. Um, so we're seeing like the year two of AI and the initial kind of use cases that I think small, smaller businesses, local businesses, it further, uh, evens the scales like that stuff isn't helping. Like top 100 advertisers just yet, because they have a tons of copywriters that write all that copy like. And that can do it at least as well, if not better, than what meta might spin up for copy or there in Adobe Illustrator. And any time you need something cropped or something cut down, they can happily take care of it.

Jon (00:12:45) - SMS you know, and you're just one person. But when you have smart outcropping in meta, or when you have generative backgrounds or you have, you know, just the education of, I'm sure many small business owners don't even know that you can run five, uh, text copies and five headlines together. And that will permeate just like the prompting and the. And here's some ideas for you. Uh, meta continues to really be a friend of of the the the long tail as as they would say, um, which is great. You're in theory, you should have, like, copywriters on standby, you know, for free and meta UI. So anyway, that's we're starting to see that trickle in. Last year was just the AI sandbox like research mode piloting. Yeah. Now you've probably seen a brand in like, you could be in an ad account and it's like you want to use this copy. You're like, whoa, yeah. Um, especially.

Brandon (00:13:33) - In max campaigns. And, you know, meta, they, they have generative everything, which is cool.

Brandon (00:13:39) - And it does really well. And I actually I hadn't thought about that take because I don't work with big companies. But, you know, on a on a lower scale pretty much everybody is using it. Um, I bought I built a GPT for veterinary practices that's trained on my podcast, and it's really cool. And I see all of these really cool things coming out for it. And I think that's so I think with with AI in terms of targeting, um, I think that creative as targeting is getting more important. So what do you think about that in general? Because I see so many choices kind of just being lumped together. And I got an email from meta today. It said try to target 2 to 10 million in your your ad reach, which is too big for almost everybody. So what do you think about the importance of creative as targeting, and how much of a factor you think that is going to play?

Jon (00:14:30) - Yeah, it's so fun. It's um, with as with all things, there's the there's what the platforms say and, and, um, want you to be doing there's an overlap of.

Jon (00:14:43) - When it's like it's often the right thing. They're saying it for a reason. Like, you know, I remember I remember before conversion based bidding came out and it just had started to come out. And they're like, you should use conversion based bidding. Um. It was not this 2014. It was not as good then as one of us white knuckling it and changing beds, changing beds and like asset structures and pausing things. Turning on used to be a real value area for media buyers. And then so if you taken the advice, just like I'm sure, uh, you'll, you'll relate to this, if you take the advice to go all in on PMCs on day one, it's like, yes, they want to, uh, drive the adoption because it's where the puck is moving and you, as the advertiser or agency, need to respect that because often it's like, whether you like it or not, there's no going back. Get it, get on or get out.

Brandon (00:15:34) - Yeah, exactly.

Jon (00:15:36) - Um.

Brandon (00:15:37) - But but it works so good because it's all branded search and you can't choose anything, right? Yeah. No, but it's just like like.

Jon (00:15:44) - But also it's like you need to see for yourself too. For because. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. They want everyone to do PMCs because then it'll it'll everything's learning periods in machine learning training. It's like it'll suck to start, but once you get it over the hump, it'll get better for everyone. So they kind of need to just like charge ahead. But the dominant in the game theory of it, kind of the dominant strategy I think is. We'll always. If something works, do it. But assuming. If you like, like us. What you saw this early was like, this isn't this isn't really crushing it. Or like replacing the things that it says it can totally replace or it does more branded. There's not enough controls down in strategies to be like measured in your approach. Wait for the market. And then. And then and always be validating on your own and catch up over time.

Jon (00:16:30) - Um, but if if I followed use conversions, bidding by meta back then immediately would have been the right thing to do. But a year later it was totally the right thing to do. So it's always like, listen to their advice. It's very telling to to signal what what they care about where things are going. But trust but verify. Um. Because I remember when there was a long period of time where Metta was like, you should absolutely buy Facebook fans, like your Facebook page and your community. You buy fans and that'll increase your reach. That was like a best practice.

Brandon (00:17:08) - Yeah, I remember now.

Jon (00:17:10) - They're like, they're like, you talk about engagements or buying engagements or like followers in general. And no meta rep once even literally acknowledged that you've spoken. Um, then it became, oh, no. Um, it's all about engage fans. You should buy engagements that would never, ever say that now. That was like that was the guidance. And so you just become cynical.

Jon (00:17:31) - Not cynical. But but. Uh. You become cautious and and your own person of just like you say. That's the thing meta used to say do do to creatives and don't touch it ever. Now they're like creative, a lot of it. So always, always is my long ramble there. But, um. Yeah. Creative is targeting. Um. Same sort of thing like Métis, Metis all about it, talking about it, creative diversification. We talked to meta last week and they were like, we've actually been doing a lot of studying. And because I don't know if you've seen it like we have, they say have more of a diverse array of creative, like very different things feature different talent, totally different formats. And that will help increase your total reach. If you're running a target and you're just kind of pummeling the same people with your conversion ads. Um. It's really because, like, we're using the best ads we can, but it's because you haven't found creative that works with more people.

Jon (00:18:27) - You'll reach more people if you're second time talking with them last week, they're like, you've been sending this a lot. Uh, if our Alagoas are not behaving that way as much as as much as we would like. And it's like, yeah, we've been kind of trying. We love the whole thesis and diversification and it makes total sense, but same sort of thing. It's like I'm sure it will get there, but we would still see, hey, if you have a top creative and you're rotating in all sorts of totally different stuff, it's still progressively serving to that, like more meta than I think you realize. And they realize that now they fix it. So, um, it's definitely two things. It's it's made a lot of strides. We're seeing a lot. Sometimes it's like, okay, let's really pause our top assets because meta just is not going to stop going there and force serve things a little bit. But then once it kicks into gear, I'm sure they'll figure this out.

Jon (00:19:18) - I mean, Zuck talked about his Meta's computing power in their eyes, like eight X bigger than Tesla, and people thought Tesla was like astronomical. So it could get crazy quickly. Um, definitely. I think the coolest example of creative is targeting is is really what TikTok brought about because organic. The targeting. Is anyone on earth and yeah my my stuff for like ad nerds like us found its way to you and absolutely and and clearly the creative and the organic algo it's all one and the same is targeting and it's all around relevance and interests and so organic. It's the most true because with organic as well, it's it's true merit because it's like they could have served anything and they served your thing. So we will always love you. You've heard me talk about this using organic and that that creative is targeting find success and then ramp that into paid. Um and yeah I think that is just trying to replicate that with with the pure paid side. But we also see that a lot of folks just trying to shortcut and not not train at altitude with organic and just be like, we'll just do it in paid.

Jon (00:20:25) - And in case that might work on meta, in the case of TikTok, it's like until you have organic success in some fashion, the paid like it's just not really going to be there. And we see that all the time. People like, we're still going to try. Yeah.

Brandon (00:20:37) - Yeah, absolutely. Well that's that's that was my perspective because I've been paid since like 2009. And so I was like, paid is the best. Organic is stupid. You can't force growth. Yeah. But then I think probably 2021 I saw that. TikTok changed it with interest. I mean, it's just it's amazing how engaging TikTok's algorithms are, right? And if the organic is that good, if you can replicate that in a paid side, you can just take off. And so I started doing organic YouTube, like personally to say, like I need to figure out how to create content. Probably YouTube organic is the hardest to break through. So if I can create content for a niche, I'll probably be much better as an ad buyer.

Brandon (00:21:17) - Totally.

Jon (00:21:17) - Same. Exact. It's the same reason I got into it. Like, oh, I'm a media buyer, but creative is really the thing. And like, I'll be vulnerable. And also I want to learn because you'll just be that much better. And I was I was a true a paid snob as well and.

Brandon (00:21:32) - Definitely paid.

Jon (00:21:33) - Snob. I've, I've and by the way, that was right for the time because absolutely organic was just like killed for a long time. Um. And so it's times change. And also like metas conversion algorithm, there's a time when they were so invested in a badass ads product.

Brandon (00:21:47) - Yeah, that that was the best that loved it.

Jon (00:21:49) - It's great. And like organic, it truly wasn't as good. But what's the coolest part about, like, this modern incarnation of organic with TikTok is and I'm sure you feel it too. It drives business. Yeah, like in direct and indirect ways. Like.

Brandon (00:22:05) - I have one client who does. So TikTok is not widely adopted by veterinary practices.

Brandon (00:22:10) - I have one client who does it and she continuously goes viral. She's like 120 million likes for a pet hospital, and she'll have people fly across the country to come to her pet hospital.

Jon (00:22:20) - Like.

Brandon (00:22:21) - Fly across the country. It's out of this insane 100%.

Jon (00:22:24) - And like that always wasn't a thing. It used to be like, you could go viral on Facebook ish if you like, did a dumb meme and you would not feel it on your business at all. But it's a different thing now. Um.

Brandon (00:22:37) - Totally. And I think TikTok shop too is really changing. I mean, so I think the benefit from an ad buyer perspective is now they have purchased data. I've bought stuff on TikTok shop to to see what the and it's fantastic experience. I think it's going to be massive. How important do you think having native purchasing options I mean face meta. I don't really think their Instagram shops have even come close to TikTok. What is your opinion about that?

Jon (00:23:05) - I agree. Um, meta. They're so good at copying.

Jon (00:23:09) - And once they see a trend is ironclad happening, they jump on it. I think they're seeing that now with TikTok shop. Um, and I think that they're going to really dial up and they're like, oh, great. Something for us to like work on, like with reels. And I think they'll they'll reverse engineer it. Um, but I totally agree it's not. For so many. One TikTok shop is closer to like Amazon Seller Central than it is Facebook Instagram shop. Um, it's interesting that, uh, meta is like mandating that checkout is integrated for all shops by April, because that's a little sign, you know, true native payments. Um, yeah. But. And did they.

Brandon (00:23:48) - Recently set up a deal with Amazon to for native purchase through Amazon.

Jon (00:23:52) - For logging with Prime? It seems like though it's just for like Amazon the marketing org and meta. It's not like it'd be amazing if if we could authenticate in our seller account and like run ads optimizing for Amazon conversion through. It's that I think, is that it's like a such a cold war that they'll have these moments.

Jon (00:24:11) - But that could cannibalize Amazon's ads business. That's different than what Amazon is doing with Pinterest. But um, yeah, I think with one. The same virality that disrupted Instagram to create reels with TikTok in general. That same thing with shop products is disrupting Instagram shop of like, oh wow, you can get this crazy organic reach. And it's the interest graph. You don't need to have followers. That same thing now with like, holy crap, you can you can hit organic or have a creator affiliate and like sell a ton of product without ads. Um, that's a new disruptive force. And and Instagram had. Of course, unless you're a really good brand content and your brand shop is is humming with some people are its really creator and creator affiliate driven. Um, and you know, we've set up some, some TikTok shops at this point for a few brands. And, you know, that's a whole like the TikTok seller center. Uh, affiliate. It's like a beast in terms of functionality.

Jon (00:25:12) - Yeah. Meta has always they've never figured out how to work with creators. Like, influencer marketing was huge on Instagram and it was influencer was just arbitrage and organic and meta like. Never liked it. Knew they couldn't kill. They would have probably love to kill organic reach, but couldn't because it was so important to keep those influencers on the platform. Then influencer marketing and identification. They built brand collabs manager, but it's like not a good like discovery or project management tool. It's nowhere near a creator marketplace on TikTok. Yeah, and then they even had Instagram affiliate creator affiliate for like a hot second like a few years ago. And they killed it. They literally killed it, um, which they probably thought was right at the time. And now it's like, oops.

Brandon (00:25:57) - Yeah, definitely.

Jon (00:25:58) - Um, and that's where there's such a distant third still with versus YouTube and TikTok, with how they just work with creators, period. Like passive monetization, active brand deals and now certainly with, with shop.

Jon (00:26:13) - Um. But there's always going to be the trade off. And we see this with this is big brands are coming to TikTok shop for sure. It's been convoluted because it is like a new sales channel, like setting up an Amazon. And there's a lot of red tape and it's not the easiest to do. Um, but there's always the big, big trade off with. The data limitations that come with setting up a native shop. That's part of the hesitation with meta. TikTok is even worse, and there will be big brands that don't do it because they're like, it's existential. We we know we're going to miss out on a lot of things, but like, we can't not have our first like long, long term we'll be vulnerable, which I respect. I think there's a happy medium. We have a lot of brands that are there just picking, since a lot of brands who are kind of can be a little high horse sometimes are like, hey, it's like do products, it's cheap, it's spammy.

Jon (00:27:07) - You're not wrong. Um. So maybe have like a factory versus core store strategy, which a lot of folks are considering. We'll just do our kind of some SKUs here. We won't let it erode the brand. Um, we like that because it's like when. Like take advantage of this moment in some way. Play the long game with your data and your and your brand value, because you're never going to beat TMU or like some of these, these companies. And it's like I see Apple like AirPods Pro headphones for like $4.30. It's like, how is this? That's a whole different story. Like totally might need to get cleaned up. But yeah, it's a real time. And for snbs my veterinary like. It's the most fun. This is why Gary always loves having Sasha group and talk to entrepreneurs because it's like. It's so there for you guys for the taking.

Brandon (00:27:56) - It really is I think. So I my personal thought is probably create content from like a TikTok first perspective and then push out to reels and probably YouTube shorts, which I think is also very underrated.

Brandon (00:28:10) - Um, but what what is your thoughts about different platforms for stages of the funnel, and do you think that that's really important for even small local businesses, or do you think they should just primarily focus on just one thing? What kind of what what's your opinion on that? Yeah.

Jon (00:28:28) - Yeah. I, um. I think that, I mean, and if I hear you say the same thing, it's like. As much as you possibly can. You want to be, uh, just like, you know, Elon wants Earth to be a multiplanetary species. It's like you don't want to have all your eggs in one basket. Um, and if things come and go and you, you, you know, jockey them all. Uh, that's just always dominant. However, resources are finite. Um, different things have different levels of lift. It's way easier to tweet than it is to make TikTok videos. So I think that and I need to be so much better at this myself. As much as you want possibly can, building the muscle of.

Jon (00:29:09) - Whether they start with reels or shorts or TikTok. If there get I mean have to be in the short form video game for a zillion reasons. Organic, paid like everything. Yeah, but you say you start in TikTok, like set up a system or just get in the habit of everything you post there. You do post in shorts and Facebook, Instagram Reels, and ideally even Amazon Inspire and Snap spotlight. Um. Like it's more chances. It's more. It's more, you know, at bats where I'm sure you have seen, you might have a best platform for me. It's TikTok, but you might have one that did okay on TikTok and then did better on Instagram than it did on TikTok, or one that just really took off on shorts. Um, so you're just missing at bats of stuff you've already made if you don't. But. At the same time there are the platforms will always want to force you to. Feel for them first and like and verify that you are so. It's not a coincidence that TikTok is pushing long form and openly talking about how they want long form the monetization program is for.

Jon (00:30:16) - I don't know if you're in the creativity beta, but it's just for minutes over video. Sorry, video is over a minute. It's like, yes, they like that for time spent and they can probably have more ad load like mid-roll ads in it too. But. At. You're only monetizing content over 60s. That's quite a coincidence, given the cap for content length is 60s on or 90s on your peers. So it's like, yeah, we have seen this where so many people be like, I just make 60s or less because then I can post it everywhere, and that's still great. But. Longform matters on TikTok. Watermark. Like they don't want to see watermarks. The more you can build natively where they know you built it, you use their captions like that seems to matter. And then the theory talks about this a ton. Like the platform nuances, like the copy, like what your title is for YouTube. Short matters. Yeah. And there's a whole craft to it. And thumbnails matter.

Jon (00:31:14) - Mr. beast talks about this a lot. Yeah, like matters a lot in a way that doesn't matter. It doesn't exist as a thing on TikTok. Um, totally. So you have to sweat those things to, um, I'm talking from someone who talks a big game about this, but I basically I just am used to the TikTok video editing. Um, and I just ramble. So I always do long form, uh, one is greater than zero, though. You have to post. Yeah. Definitely start. You know, start there.

Brandon (00:31:41) - Yeah, definitely. Well, I want to be respectful of your time. I know you're super busy. So what what do you think is maybe one of the things that's probably the biggest opportunity or biggest tip for somebody that's doing marketing for Veterinary Hospital that they might not think of, that you might have not taken.

Jon (00:32:01) - I mean, I'm sure this is thought of to varying degrees, but my goodness, like you, you're that's. And people in in the pet industry have ringers, which are hilarious awesome pets that they're in the profession that has the thing people spend most of their time on, on social media watching.

Jon (00:32:19) - Totally. And we've worked. Yeah, we've worked with, um, in my career or Petco, chewy, etc. and they know this. And like, there's pet influencers and that's a big part of their content, but that's a superpower. Um, so it's one thing if you're like a plumber, it's like, but if you're a, if you work with pets, it's like, use that. Um, but you always want to fuse like fun, which could just be like cute dog videos or whatever with your practice. Like, we've learned this and brands to learn this, where it's like you could hit a million views on TikTok and it could do a little for your business or do a ton. Yeah. So like try to throw that needle where you need to be. You need attention, you need views, you need the hook. But. You at your practice doing something and showing and showing your craft. And it's cute and funny is kind of like ideal versus, um, but you always have to balance those things.

Jon (00:33:17) - Uh, yeah. And I would also say that like if, if whether you're adjacent, literally veterinary or adjacent to it, um, brands like want to be in the creator economy. They're very risk averse. Um, it's kind of like, you know, when you want a promotion, uh, do the job you want to be promoted into. So they just it just is so natural. Like, if you if you want to work with Petco, like, make content, tag them. Don't like that, but just make a great piece of content and tag them. And if it does well, they'll reach out to you. Um, sure. You know, we we work with Bose like we've seen, uh, awesome artists make something with bows and like, B and it's a, it's a great ad. And yes, they did it for free. Um, but it's a give and take to like, the days of the glory days of influencer marketing, where brands would just give you a briefcase of money and you didn't have to deliver anything is over.

Jon (00:34:10) - Yeah. Now you got you really whether it's affiliate and you got to drive sales or. So. You know. Consider that and tag. Um. You'd be surprised. I don't know that that maybe would help too.

Brandon (00:34:25) - That definitely makes sense. I think there's just tons of opportunities and for the most part, most vets don't necessarily want to work with Petco or Chewy because they see them as competition. But I mean, in the space, there's just so many opportunities that products that they are one.

Jon (00:34:38) - Yeah, anyone they would want to want to work with or collab with, including like other local businesses or charities, just like Gary has a video that's great on this about local. And if you have a podcast, have like the local person on the podcast at the bar and like become famous in your community and there's so much you can do there.

Brandon (00:34:58) - Yeah, totally. I have one client that does a podcast and they do that locally and it works amazingly well, so it's fantastic. I think that's really great.

Brandon (00:35:07) - Well, thank you so much, Jon. I really appreciate it. It was great getting all your insights. And um, thank you again for taking time for our little community to, you know, share the wisdom. So I appreciate you very much, man.

Jon (00:35:19) - I love I love this about TikTok and the internet that like, you're in Idaho, you're run an agency, do what you do. Like I'm and we're talking and like have so much you know this is my I could talk about this with you forever.

Brandon (00:35:32) - I could too. We could keep going, so I.

Jon (00:35:35) - I have a 230. I would love to keep going, but, um, shout out Greenwich Village Animal Hospital. They're the vet. The clinic that my wife and I use for our, uh, Papillon, who's creating mayhem somewhere. But Greenwich Village Animal Hospital in the West Village. They're the best.

Brandon (00:35:51) - No joke. So very cool. I'm gonna have to check. Yeah. It's wild. Well, thank you so much and have a great day.

Jon (00:35:57) - And appreciate you, too, Brandon. Uh, can't wait to, uh, to see this out there. This will be this will be fun. Thank you again.

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